2004 ABR Midwest Grooming Clinic

What did we learn?


  • Fresh snow has air in it.  Your job is to get the air out of the snow so it will adhere better to itself and older (base) snow.  This is a time consuming process in which results are often not seen until the next day.
  • It is almost always best to mix older snow with fresh snow-thus just packing (rolling) snow will not do a good as job as adding work with a renovator.
  • Snow on regularly groomed ski trails will better withstand heat and traffic (skiers) than snow on ungroomed or irregularly groomed ski trails.
  • Best results occur when grooming occurs at or below 32 degrees.
  • Multiple passes over the trails are normally required
  • Track setting is normally done last if you are doing the full width of the trail.
  • Track setting works best if set the tracks and let them sit overnight before skiers use them.


  • “State of the Art” (2004) Nordic ski trail grooming equipment represents a significant improvement over similar equipment 10 years ago but a dedicated ski trail groomer using older equipment will have more success than undedicated ski trail groomer using ultra-modern equipment.
  • Nordic Ski Trail grooming speeds are normally in the 5-10 mph range.  Faster speeds normally do not produce better results. Track setting may require speeds of 5 mph or less!
  • Skidoo Wide Track (24 inch) Skanda is the most widely used snowmobile for Nordic ski trail grooming. Purposes.  It also has a known weakness with its generator and reports of it blowing up exist.
  • There is a growing trend to utilize a second battery (secured in the rear rack area of the snowmobile) to run the various electrical actuators found on ultramodern grooming equipment.  Ultramodern grooming equipment has 2-3 electric actuators and manufactures are exploring the possibility of adding more in the future.  You will need to learn how to wire in the implements to this second battery.  If you use the accessory outlet on your snowmobile to run the electrical implements on the grooming machine, expect fuses to blow and items on your snowmobile to malfunction.
  • Most experience groomers are adding weight to the front of their snowmobile and adjusting (raising) the height of their rear suspension to improve steering when using an implement off the back of the snowmobile.  These operators are also switching to aftermarket skis in which dual or triple carbines or runners are featured.  All of these adjustments are normally required when using ultramodern equipment due to the increased length of the ultramodern equipment.
  • Compaction drags usually only work well with snowmobiles when there is less than 3 inches of snow on the trail.
  • Operating costs for a Pisten Bully or similar type of snowcat machine are approximately $65 hour.  Snowmobile operating costs have been documented to be one-fifth the cost of using a snowcat.  These costs include labor.

Fresh Snow:

  • The goal is to keep the fresh snow under your equipment in an attempt to pack it.  If you are pushing the snow out and away from your equipment, you need to make some adjustments to your grooming implement including the possibility of slowing down the speed of your machine!
  • Normally it is best to use multiple passes over the ski trail by first starting in the middle and then alternating sides.  This will help the center of the ski trail develop an increased base.
  • Rollers can be used with every new snowfall for packing packing purposes but some groomers prefer to restrict the use of rollers to very early season usage or when the ski trails receive 5 inches or more of unpacked snowfall.  The reason behind this?  The “Time Factor” is one reason as the use of rollers should be followed with use of other implements.  It is felt most other modern implements can easily handle 4-5 or less inches of unpacked snowfall without rolling first.
  • Rolling the trails needs to be followed by use of a compaction drag and/or renovating device in an attempt to further break-down the snowflakes, remove additional air and to level the trails.
  • Use of snow flaps (items attached to the implements that are used to pull snow into the center of the implement) is commonly utilized on modern implements (G2 and YTS).  The snow flaps also help “tumble” the snow which break the snowflake down so it can better adhere to other snowflakes and make a harder trail surface.
  • It is best to set “tracks” and let them harden overnight rather than setting tracks at 8:00am.
  • If less than two inches of snow will fall during the day, you do not have to regroom the ski trails.  However, if a day long storm is to occur, it is best to groom thru the snowfall in an attempt to prevent producing a hard surface layer over many inches of soft snow.

Old Snow (no fresh snow on your trails):

  • Goal is to scarify a small amount of surface snow.  A challenging goal when your ski base is not thick.  Experience operators will often resort to home-made items in an attempt to deal with the situation.
  • It is often impossible to set track in low base conditions.
  • You do not have to always reset track
  • Having wide trails allows one to pull snow in off the side of the trails to improve conditions.
  • Just rolling existing snow will lead to multiple “bumps” on your trails.  You must scarify and mix this with the existing base to produce satisfying results.

Off-Season Work:

  • Snow can melt from the ground upward.  It is important to remove rocks, leaves and branches from your trail system in an attempt to drive the frost/cold further into the ground.  These items will act as insulators to prevent the frost from being driven into the ground and will melt the snow from the ground upward even if the air temperature is below freezing.
  • If you cover problem areas of the trail system with logs, hay, insulator boards or wood chips, you are also insulating the ground from the frost and encouraging snow to melt from the ground upward.  You should always attempt to cover these items with several inches of dirt and grass seed in an attempt to correct problem areas.
  • If you leave your trail system covered with leaves and sticks, don’t expect low snow skiing conditions.  Off season work strongly effects the condition of snow on the trails.


Grooming is expensive at $5.05/mile, make the most of it.

Skiing across the parking lot is the most dangerous part of the trail (even though Doug Edgerton sets tracks across the parking lot every clinic)

Grooming deep snow takes many passes with a snowmobile.

Roll snow with a roller with ridges to farm snow blown across the trail.

Conserve snow on the sides of the trail for when you really need it.

Don’t groom your snow too hard, too fast.

The “Shovel” is your best friend when you get stuck.

The most dense part of the trail is where your groomers tracks go, alternate this position.

Wire actuators on your snowmobiles to optimize your implements efficiency

Pull dry snow up from deep down when you have icy conditions.

An ugly shallow scratched in reset track is safer than an old  icy, firm, pretty track.

Mark your calendars for next year’s clinic Jan 14-15, 2004

A 45 minute highlights video is available from the 2002 Clinic

2004 ABR Grooming Clinic Quiz

  1. The best down pressure is _________ to set a good track
    1. 20 lbf
    2. 200 lbf
    3. 2000lpf
    4. 20,000 lbf
  2. The best tiller speed is:
    1. 20 RPM
    2. 200 RPM
    3. 800 RPM
    4. 4500 RPM
  3. I takes approximately______Horsepower to till 1 foot wide:
    1. 1 HP
    2. 2 HP
    3. 10 HP
    4. 20 HP
  4. After a deep snow, first groom:
    1. The left side
    2. The right side
    3. The low side
    4. The middle
  5. After a 40 degree day you should groom the trail with a 10 inch base:
    1. At closing
    2. Just before the temp hits 32
    3. As the temp drops below 32
    4. In the morning
    5. When the snow temp goes from 33-32
  6. If you have an actuator on your snowmobile implement, you know your fan cooled machine is running at a good temp because:
    1. The temp light is not on
    2. The ribbon tied to your cowling is flowing
    3. It smells OK
    4. The head temp gauge reads ______or less
  7. The best distance between tracks is:
    1. What ever feels good
    2. Depends on the snow
    3. 8 inches
    4. 6 inches
  8. Corduroy is for:
    1. Preventing an icy hard surface
    2. Getting an edge in
    3. Catching snow in the cracks
  9. The best time to groom in a rainy condition is:
    1. Just before it rains
    2. As it is raining
    3. Just after it rains
    4. After the snow freezes rock hard
  10. The average trail pass as reported by CCSAA is
    • ______
  11. Optimum skate lane density for recreational skiers is:
    • _____________________________________________
  12. Prevent slipping in your parking lot after a rain by:
    1. Sanding
    2. Closing
    3. Salting
    4. Grooming the lot
  13. For the best steering and traction , stud your wide track:
    1. On the edges only
    2. Never stud a snowmobile for work
    3. In a V or W pattern
  14. To bring up dry snow after you have a thaw:
    1. Set your tiller depth at 5 inches
    2. Use your blade in the position
    3. Increase your tiller speed
    4. Use your renovator
  15. To get even compaction on a 12 foot wide trail
    1. Drive your snowmobile in the same spot every time
    2. Drive your snowmobile opposite directions every time
    3. Drive your snowmobile in staggered positions
    4. Drive your snowmobile with different speeds
  16. The only time to get out of your snow cat with your tiller running is:
    1. When the saleman is there
    2. When the mechanic is there
    3. When the parking brake is on
    4. NEVER get out with the tiller running
  17. The best standard speed for setting tracks is:
    1. 2 mph
    2. 5 mph
    3. 10 mph
    4. 20 mph
  18. Snowmobile grooming costs including a standard SWT and groomer and operator are:
    1. $.05/mile
    2. $.50/mile
    3. $5/mile
    4. $50/mile
  19. If you have a compacted icy corn snow base of 6 inches and you get an inch of snow, the best grooming technique is:
    1. Comb the new snow on top with light pressure
    2. Roll the new snow on top
    3. Mix the old snow with the new snow by using teeth down a ½ inch
    4. Why groom? Let it get skied in!
  20. The best suspension for grooming on a snowmobile is
    1. A soft rear end and tight front end
    2. A tight rear end and soft front end
    3. A tight rear and front
    4. A soft rear and front
  21. The best place along a skate lane for a classic track is always:
    1. On the far left
    2. On the far right
    3. Down the center
    4. Centered 2 feet from the edge
  22. You can pull up dry snow under an icy surface with a:
    1. Tidd Tech
    2. Ginzu
    3. Tiller
    4. Renovator
  23. To set tracks in a thin base
    1. Remove the cutters
    2. Farm snow in from the edges
    3. Use light down pressure
    4. Raise the track setter in very thin areas
  24. Snow density is important for:
    1. Skating
    2. Classic
    3. Racing
    4. Warm temperatures
  25. Death cookies are
    1. Small snow chunks
      pine cones
    2. holes made by skiers
      the cookies your mother in law bakes
  26. Base building in early season should start:
    1. As soon as it snows
    2. When the ground freezes and it snows
    3. Only after 6 inches or more of snow
    4. December 1st
  27. Wet areas can be fixed by using:
    1. Sand and salt
    2. Hay and snow
    3. A powertiller
    4. A roller
  28. Liquid cooled snow mobiles overheat because:
    1. They don’t have a radiator
    2. You are grooming slow
    3. You are grooming hard pack
    4. They don’t get snow splashed on the running boards
  29. Most recreational skiers prefer:
    1. A hard fast glazed track
    2. A soft mushy track
    3. A hard packed but non icy track
    4. A shallow track
  30. Always set your track setter in from the edge because
    1. You need to pack the pole plant area
    2. To keep the classic skier out of the brush
    3. For safety
    4. Especially on outside curves
  31. The best time to groom is
    1. When the skiers are off of the trail
    2. As the temps are dropping
    3. Just after a snow
    4. Just after a melt/freeze cycle
  32. Use up pressure
    1. On hill crests
    2. On thin spots
    3. On intersections
    4. On deep snow
  33. When the snow is being plowed off the trails into the woods with your implement
    1. Wait for a few days
    2. Put the teeth down deeper
    3. Pack, Drag or Roll first
    4. Go faster

2003 Midwest Grooming Clinic Summary

Vendors that attended included:

  1. Pisten Bully by Track Inc with a PB 100 equipped for Nordic
  2. Bombardier by Aspen equipment with a BR180 and rubber tracks
  3. Tidd Tech with various groomers and new innovations
  4. Yellowstone Track Systems  with the new Ginzu Groomer and gooseneck
  5. Alpina with the NEW dual-track Sherpa Snowmobile and new powertiller
  6. Ski-Doo by Ave’s Sport Center
  7. Cragin Groomers
  8. KRC Snow Paver
  9. Snow Implements  is a dealer for YTS, Tidd Tech, Alpina and Xcskigroomers

The heated “Race Building”  had tables  for vendor’s displays, and had grooming video tapes playing during the 2 days. Vendors had over 80 pieces of grooming equipment on display and available for test drives.


8-9 AM registration coffee and rolls sponsored by Cross Country Skier Magazine

9-9:20 Tidd Tech: we learned about the Tidd Tech products from Phil Zink

9:20-9:40 YTS: we learned about the products from YTS from Doug Edgerton

9:40-10 Alpina we learned about the new 4 stroke Sherpa and tiller from Quirino Tironi

10-10:20 Cragin we learned about the aluminum Cragin Groomer from Bob Cragin

10:20-10:40-Ski-doo we learned about the Skandic SWT adjustments from Rick Slade

Artic Cat: we heard about the Bear Cat 4 Stroke from a owner groomer

Polaris: we heard the wide tracks from another owner/user

11:00-11:20 Bombardier (Thursday) we saw the BR 180 in Rubber low snow tracks

11:20-11:40 Pisten Bully we learned about the PB100 and Canyon from Greg Toomire

11:40-12:00 KRC Snow Paver we saw the new groomer from Russ Alger (demo 4 PM)

11:40-1:30 Pasty lunch sponsored by Track Inc at ABR and test drives

1:30-3:30  Lectures at the Erwin Townhall (½ mile down the road)

1:30 Low Snow Grooming Eric Anderson

2:00 Technical Grooming   Doug Edgerton

2:30-3:30  Grooming Scenarios: Birkie 2002, low snow, hard snow, and icy snow

3:30-5:00 open skiing and grooming

6:30 –7:30 Social hour at Tacconellis   sponsored by Yellowstone Track Systems

7:30-8:30 Dinner at Tacconelli’s sponsored by Snow Implements

8:30-9:00 Slide Show of The 2002 Olympics Behind the Scenes and the Grooming by Doug Edgerton, Chief of Course Preparation

9:00–9:10 Grooming Trivia Test and Prizes


8-9 AM coffee and rolls sponsored by ABR and equipment viewing

9-12 test driving grooming equipment/ meet the vendors

Smaller Group Sessions

Beginner grooming meet in the Registration/Wax Barn

Snow Cat Maintenance by Greg Toomire Track Inc

Grooming from a skiers prospective by Phil Zink

Snow Science and Analyst by Russ Alger in the hardpack demo area

Analyzing the snow from a skier

Tracksetting “hardpack”  demo behind the Registration/Wax Barn

Snowmobile pulling  demonstrations:  pulling  10,000 pounds by a dual track Alpina

“Loop de Loop” Steering tests of various snowmobiles by Dick Langer

Wiring your snowmobile for an actuator in the Registraton Barn by Eric Anderson

Lunch at Tacconelli’s  Restaurant sponsored by Alpina

Lectures at Tacconelli’s in downtown Ironwood

1:00-1:30 Grooming Costs $5.05 /mile to groom with a snowmobile and 4 Implements

1:30-2:00 Safety- Trail design policy and grooming by Eric Anderson

2:00-3:00 More Grooming Scenarios

3:00 load and go… or stay and ski

What did we learn?

Snowmobile grooming is expensive at $5.05/mile, make the most of it.

Skiing across the parking lot is the most dangerous part of the trail (even though Doug Edgerton sets tracks across the parking lot every clinic)

Grooming deep snow takes many passes with a snowmobile.

Why is snow density important and how to measure it.

Roll snow with a roller with ridges to farm snow blown across the trail.

Snowmobiles have a wide variety of turning circles (demo).

When do you roll or drag?

Adjust your suspension so your machine turns (demo).

When not to set a track on a curve, intersection or hill.

How speed relates to the grooming operation.

Conserve snow on the sides of the trail for when you really need it.

Don’t groom your snow too hard, too fast.

A hardpacked icy surface can be groomed inot a skiable suraface (demo).

How to set tracks in a thin base.

The “Shovel” is your best friend when you get stuck. (“hands on” demo).

How much weight is optimum for tracking.

The most dense part of the trail is where your groomers tracks go;’ alternate this position.

How to know if your fan cooled snowmobile is hot.

Wire actuators on your snowmobiles to optimize your implements efficiency.

Safety is a top priority in grooming and trail design.

When to groom….. and when not to groom.

What liquid cooled machines work for grooming and why?

Mount your electric actuators switches in a convenient location and fused.

Pull dry snow up from deep down when you have icy conditions.

What a skier likes for a track position on the trail.

An ugly shallow scratched in reset track is safer than an old icy, firm, pretty track.

Mark your calendars for next year’s clinic Jan 14-15, 2004

A 45 minute highlights video is available from the 2002 Clinic

Snowmobile Steering Tests

Tests were conducted by grooming clinic participants in a hard surface controlled test. 2 people were used on the machine to simulate pulling a load. Circles were measured to the outside ski center skag.

Test 1 With 2 people on the machine in the seated position, no braking or motion

Snowmobile Turning diameter
Polaris Wide track Powder skis with bumper weight 40‘ 2”
Polaris Wide track Powder skis stock 58’ 6”
Skandic SWT stock skis and bumper weight 25’10”
Skandic WT 25’6”
Skandic SWT with flexi skis 27’8”
Skandic SWT with 144 studs in center and bumper wt 44’0”
Alpine II with bumper weight 26’
Alpina Sherpa 35’5
Bear Cat NA

Test 2 With 1 person and body motion

Snowmobile Turning diameter
Alpine II with bumper weight 22’9”
Skandic SWT with flexi skis 25’10”
Alpina Sherpa 35’3”

Tests results compiled by Dick Langer

2002 ABR Grooming Clinic Wrap Up

This year ABR again hosted the Midwest Grooming Clinic endorsed by the CCSAA on January 16th and 17th, 2002. We had 122 groomers and vendors turn up for the occasion…. from Canada to lower Michigan, from Montana and Colorado to Italy.

Next years clinic is scheduled for January 15th and 16th, 2003

A video was taped and is being edited of the clinic. Call or email for details.

Who was there?

  1. Pisten Bully by Track Inc with a new PB 100 demo equipped for Nordic
    http://www.trackinc.com 952-888-7372
  2. Bombardier by Aspen equipment with a BR 180
    http://www.aspenequipment.com/ 800-888-2773
  3. Tidd Tech with various groomers and new innovations
    http://www.tiddtech.com/ 877-843-3832
  4. Yellowstone Track Systems with the new Ginzu Groomer
    http://www.yellowstonetrack.com/ 406-646-7603
  5. Alpina with the NEW Twin Track Snowmobile and powertiller
    http://www.alpina-snowmobiles.com/ 906-932-3502
  6. Trakor by xcskigroomers.com a new track-setter
    http://www.xcskigroomers.com/ 231-526-7120
  7. Ski-Doo by Ave’s Sport Center
    http://www.bombardier.com/ 715-561-2720
  8. JACA by First Tracks of Thunder Bay Canada
    http://www.jacatrax.com/ 807-345-0162
  9. ASV’s Track Truck by Duffy’s Sales
    http://posi-track.com 715-537-3259
  10. Bachler by YTS with a renovator
    http://www.yellowstonetrack.com/ 406-646-7603
  11. Cragin Groomer

There were many sales as a result of the Clinic. Vendors came with trucks and trailers full and left empty. Please support these vendors and tell them you saw their equipment at the clinic.

The heated “Race Building” was used for vendor’s displays with boards for used equipment for sale and innovative ideas.

Who did we hear from?

  • Doug Edgerton, president of Yellowstone Track Systems and  the Chief of Course Preparation for the 2002 Olympics in Salt Lake City
  • Russ Alger of The Keweenaw Research Center at Michigan Technological Univ.
  • David and Phil Zink of Tidd Tech in Fraser, CO
  • George LeFeuvre of JACA in New Brunswick, Canada
  • Dave Forbush of Forbush Corner in Frederick, MI
  • Ing. Quirino Tironi of Alpina in Italy
  • Jay Richards of Maplelag in Callaway, MN
  • Greg Toomire of Pisten Bully, Track Inc, in Bloomington MN
  • Erik Petersen of Bombardier of Aspen Equipment, in Duluth MN
  • Jim VanderSpoel Supervisor of Operations at Mt. Zion and faculty member of The Ski Area Management Program
  • Eric Anderson of ABR Trails.

What did we hear about?

  • Snowcat safety and maintenance by Jim VanderSpoel
    • Do not get out of your snow cat with the tiller running and always set your parking brake.  Thermoses on the front dash may end up breaking a $1500 windshield.
  • Keep your Snowmobile from burning up by Rick Slade
    • There are 3 suspension adjustments to make your Skandic SWT steer better, or a front weight rack and flexi skis. If your lights get bright and or your handle grips get hot, your voltage regulator is on it’s way out, turn off the machine and replace it (the regulator). Carry a fire extinguisher under your seat.
  • There really is an Alpina dual track snowmobile and power tiller! Quirino Tironi
    • We saw and test drove  the Alpina dual track snowmobile. It has tons of torque and traction plus it steers like a dream. It was built for hard work. The pull behind powertiller tilled some man made ice and set tracks like it was butter. The Alpina pulled the 8 foot wide Cragin groomer though deep snow with 4 men (1000 pounds) on the Alpina and steered as it climbed a hill! Orders for the Alpina should  be made this spring for October delivery. These specialty machines are built to order similar to snowcats. Alpina now has ABR Trails as the  Midwest dealer and Importer for the US. Call ABR for a demo of the Alpina. A video is available.
  • Grooming from a skiers prospective by David Zink
    • We saw a video/slide show on why to groom wide on hills, put a radius edge on the striding trails, alternate side grooming etc. This was an excellent presentation and very well done, especially for the non skiers
  • How to get the most from low snow conditions
    • Various discussions on how to conserve snow by not grooming, using JACA grabber wings to pull snow in or just scarifying the surface lightly so not as to bring up dirt. Use your snow cat with a compactor bar and have the tracks loosen up the hard pack. Be sure the ground is frozen or you will bring up dirt.
  • Snowcat grooming in low snow by Dave Forbush
    • Dave explained how he only uses snowcats and grooms in low snow. He only opens weekends and holidays and saves the weekday snow. He pulls moulding plates and rollers behind his snow cats and he runs a very reputable, professional and meticulously groomed private trail system with an $18 trail fee 1 hour south of the Mackinaw bridge in Frederick MI.
  • An open session discussing various grooming scenarios for different conditions.
    • This was a particularly interesting open discussion, coming up with solutions and ideas for grooming in different low snow conditions.
  • Powertilling and snow density by Doug Edergton
    • Till deep enough to set tracks, keep your shaft speed down to not over till and have a rock hard surface, use “up pressure” on  hill crests and intersections. Use summer tracks for early season grooming. If you overgroom your snow you end up with “sugar snow”.
  • The compact Nordic version of the Keweenaw Snow Paver Groomer by Russ Alger
    • The miller is under development for Nordic ski trails.
  • Where to find used equipment and how to know if it’s any good by Track Inc
  • Grooming for races and hi level competitions by Eric Anderson
    • If it’s snowing at midnight the night before the JO’s sprints, you will not get any sleep. These young athletes deserve the best course possible. In a open windy golf course sprint course pack channels upwind with your snowmobile to catch the blowing snow and keep it off the course. Don’t forget the warm-up loop, groom it as you do the course.
  • Grooming with a snowmobile in freeze/thaw conditions by George LeFeuvre
    • Bring out the snow fence drag and snowmobiles when your course turns to mush and the 3 snowcats are stuck at the 6 km mark of a World Cup event during warm grooming temps. Groom when the air is cooling and moisture is evaporating.
  • Automating your drags and attachments
    • Make sure your battery and alternator can handle the loads of your actuators and aux lights. Always fuse the aux equipment.  Cole Hearsey makes a nice 2 pol;e self centering switch with a long handle.
  • Grooming with a Track Truck by Duffy Anderson
  • Snow Characterization by Russ Alger
    • There is no black box to evaluate snow conditions.
  • How to evaluate your groomed trails
    • Talk to your skiers and ski your trails. Try hard with 100% effort, but remember you can not please everyone, try to please 80% of your skiers and 20% of the coaches.
  • Grooming for efficient skier flow by Jay Richards
    • Test your grooming by skiing it and look at the tracks of the skiers skiing them. Alternate the track from the left to right in dual tracked trails on down-hills. Do not track through your intersections.

What did we eat?

We had a nice banquet dinner at Tacconelli’s with the social hour paid for by Track Inc /Pisten Bully Dealer. Russ Alger followed with a 1500 Mile Trek Across Antarctica Slide Show. Alpina hats, Pisten Bully hats and a Pisten Bully jacket were given away to some technical question answers.

A pasty lunch was sponsored by CCSAA from  the Pastry Kitchen

An authentic Pizzocheri (hearty wholewheat pasta) and grilled Cottechini (Italian mountain sausage) was prepared and sponsored by Alpina dual track snowmobiles.

What did we see, touch and drive?

The  Bachler renovator and tracksetter and the new ginzu groomers from YTS, the full Tidd Tech line up including new 8 foot roller, super flaps and actuators from Tidd Tech, the full line of JACA equipment including a set of grabber wings, renovator and hi speed tracksetter, the new Alpina dual track snowmobile and powertiller, The xcskigroomers.com tracksetter,  the 8 foot wide aluminum Cragin groomer,  The PB100 and 070, Bombardier’s BR 180 and Prinoths T2S, ASV’s Track Truck,  Ski-doos SWt and WT’s, an older Alpine II, and various homemade attachments.